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If there isn’t much cross-platform engagement between the #threadiverse and #mastodon, and Reddit migrants leave because of insufficient activity … is this a failure of sorts of the #fediverse ?
I’m leaning yes. If cross-platform activity is essentially irrelevant but more of a minor awkward perk at times then the fediverse doesn’t exist (yet) at the level of being a social media platform or space.
Instead, it’s a tool for FOSS platforms to scale through decentralisation.
@maegul to the contrary: there’s a bunch of activity on multiple fediverse platforms and people are mostly enjoying it, so that’s a success for the fediverse! And there’s plenty of cross-instances activity in the #kbin/lemmy world (despite the DDOS attack causing federation problems for Kbin.social) so it’s a decentralized success. Still plenty of rough edges of course but it’s actually gone much better so far than I would have predicted … ixnay on the egativitynay! @fediversenews
@jdp23 @maegul @fediversenews Absolutely. Plus, the fact that they all are based on #ActivityPub means that #Mastodon server operators are spinning up #kbin and #Lemmy instances. Adding capacity to meet any surge is not going to be a problem. Early days on content interoperability. It is all very exciting.
@mastodonmigration @jdp23 @fediversenews
Exciting yes. I'm really trying to frame things beyond just "ActivityPub will auto-magically make things happen"
For instance, I'm not sure ActivityPub is really a factor behind admins spinning up parallel instances, its the user demand for the platforms IMO.
And while it's early and exciting days on interoperability, I think it's fair to ask what it really means or doesn't mean to have 10M users.
@mastodonmigration @jdp23 @fediversenews
Another rant I've had on this platforms v protocols conversation in a very interesting thread on the topic too: https://calckey.social/notes/9fxvpr90yg5apr22
Many are dreaming of what "the protocol as a meta platform" looks like, and I think it's worth talking about where we actually are on this, because I'm not sure we've even started yet, and it matters, IMO, for the growth and quality of the fediverse at large.
https://calckey.social/notes/9fxvpr90yg5apr22
Threadiverse? Seems there is a lot of ignorance of hubzilla.
@hubzillar Eh, it's not a terribly accurate umbrella term, but if you want to say Hubzilla is part of the "threadiverse", go ahead. Otherwise, it's not a terribly popular platform and, I suspect, not especially relevant for reddit users looking for a place on the fediverse ... but I've never used it so I'm happy to be wrong.
But there's one more reason why Hubzilla isn't seen as part of the #Threadiverse. Hubzilla does have forums, quite active ones, even. But almost all traffic on these forums comes from within Hubzilla because all active Hubzilla forums that I'm aware of are about Hubzilla. Most of the few users of these forums who aren't on Hubzilla are on #Streams which, by the way, should count as part of the Threadiverse just as much as Hubzilla.
The complete lack of activity between ActivityPub users and Hubzilla forums actually lead to nobody knowing for sure if, and if so, how well users of ActivityPub projects can interact with Hubzilla forums because they never do. This, in conjunction with the growing of the Threadiverse, is why I've suggested the creation of public test forums on both Hubzilla and (streams) so that experiments in cross-project, cross-protocol federation don't disturb the activity on other forums.
@maegul think of it in terms of the ecosystem, not the protocol. The fediverse has admins with experience and infrastructure to spin up good-size instances quickly, which means there’s a lot more capacity to absorb an influx than there was ever last fall. It’s certainly a good question about what it really means to have 10M users but that’s different from characterizing things as a failure @mastodonmigration @fediversenews
@jdp23 @mastodonmigration @fediversenews
Yes, for sure, "failure" is a strong word ... though some might have a perspective and ambition against which it might not be insane to speak it.
Excellent point about the infrastructural expertise ... seeing mastodon admins put up #threadiverse instances has been awesome and likely vital!!
Really not trying to be negative, and actually just thinking out loud. So far, and I might have missed it all, I haven't seen much activity from #mastoverse platforms, especially given how many there are.
Obviously "failure" is in the eye of the beholder and a strong word. But my general axe-to-grind is to ask what it means if a platform/format is mostly left to fend for itself and what it means for how to think about what can/should be built here.
They don't know the accounts and channels where Fediverse projects other than Mastodon are the talk of the town, much less follow them. And the signal-to-noise ratio on the public timelines on the big general Mastodon instances doesn't let posts about Lemmy etc. through or about how they federate with Mastodon.
I mean, it's been a while since the last time I had to tell someone that #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse, or since I saw someone learn it in a thread. But many many Mastodon users still don't know.
(@Jon: How come it's your #Diaspora account out of all of them that's at the top of my auto-completion list?)
Patience. Mastodon servers are all having issues retaining new users because it's all a bit complicated. Explaining it is even more complicated doesn't seem a great strategy.
Mastodon.social is the busiest instance which partially negates the 'not as busy as' #Twitter complaint. It isn't a bad choice for a new user. Some will grow and appreciate they are gateways to great #Fediverse offerings and migrate to other communities.
More serious is it politically having more clout.
@maegul @fediversenews No. This wish for everything to interact for the sake of it is geek wet dream technical masturbation.
ActivityPub is a very general protocol, but that doesn’t mean that everything should interact.
Don’t get me wrong. Being able is cool, but then again I’m a geek.
There wil be AP systems that make more sense to interact than others. That’s natural and to be expected.
Ha! Fair!
I do wonder, and this was the underlying point of the question, how possible the "wet dream" is.
Can we get to a point where users "surf the protocol" without worrying about what "system" or platform they're on?
@maegul In general? No.
Not for technical reasons but for UI/UX reasons.
I suspect some kind of functionality could arrive (and some is here already) for certain niche use cases.
Like for example you want to follow someone on Lemmy and you don’t want to follow a community there. So you follow from Mastodon.
I think said use cases would be rare tho.
Yea ... you're probably right and certainly more qualified ... but my intuition is that there's a promise in a social-activity protocol that requires some creativity to fulfill and we're kinda too stuck in old structures and tightly-iterative engineering cycles to see it. Terminal CLI -> GUI is *loosely* analogous to what I'm thinking.
May all be "wet dreams" though.
In the end though, my ultimate point was the point you made in response about AP not providing everything. Agree.
@maegul I might very well be wrong and I’m definetely not more qualified. They are opinions I hold strongly, but no more than that! 
Edit: typo: *no* more
@maegul@hachyderm.io @fediversenews@venera.social
If they leave because there is not much interaction between link-aggregator types of software (as Wikipedia calls it) and Mastodon software, then it is the failure of those software, not the #Fediverse.
Always remember, the fediverse is ALL software communicating through the #ActivityPub protocol. Mastodon is a software. Lemmy is a software. Kbin is a software.
If your question is about the fediverse, then I don't see how this applies:
I’m leaning yes. If cross-platform activity is essentially irrelevant but more of a minor awkward perk at times then the fediverse doesn’t exist (yet) at the level of being a social media platform or space.Because there is a lot of engagement happening in the fediverse network. It is not a “minor awkward perk at times”
You have to reshape your thinking about what the Fediverse is.
1. The Fediverse is not Mastodon. (That's like saying Asia is China.)
2. Mastodon is just one part of the Fediverse network. (Or, China is just one part of Asia.)
3. This so-called “threadiverse” is only one part of the Fediverse network, it is not a separate thing. (This usage of “threadiverse” is what's causing the confusion.)
4. There is no “mastoverse” or any “-verse” because they can all interoperate, engage, communicate, with each other through the ActivityPub protocol.
Your current thinking, if I may, is like this:
a. There is a yahooverse (ref: threadiverse).
b. And email (ref: fediverse) and gmail (ref: Mastodon) are interchangable.
c. And sometimes it can also be called gmailverse (ref: mastoverse).
There is no “insufficient activity” in the fediverse network. There are already some people who left who said there is too much noise, and it is so hard to keep up with everything.
If Reddit migrants leave because of a supposed “insufficient activity”, it probably is due to the software they are using. Maybe the software has a bug. Or, maybe the software chose not to show to the users how very active the fediverse is, and their only interaction with the fediverse is if someone replies to their “Thread”. (And as an aside, this is where Kbin wins because it shows the wider fediverse through its “microblog” feature/tab.)
---
I hope it makes sense. It's hard to explain things if English is not not one's primary language, and with that I apologise if it was confusing or too wordy.
@youronlyone @fediversenews
Yea, not sure I entirely agree.
By "fediverse" I'm referring to the collective quality of the whole, however much any part is responsible.
I'm also presuming (accurately enough AFAICT) that interaction between mastodon users and #lemmy/#kbin is not high compared to interactions internal to #lemmy/#kbin.
Sure, the software has problems, but much of the attraction of the #threadiverse depends on the level of activity and number and size of communities.
1/
Part of the problem with getting a community based platform off of the ground is how to get sufficiently active communities. This is where the "fediverse" comes in. If the federation is a "killer feature", then arguably activity should spread across platforms and formats so that newer spaces and platforms become easier to seed over time.
You highlight that the problem is software not the protocol. I agree! But then ask what value the protocol provides.
2/
Generally, I'm probing at the possibility that too much is made of the protocol and not enough of the importance of getting the software right, not just specifically to a particular platform, but globally, in terms of the overall structures and designs of the platforms that are being built.
I think we might agree here somewhat.
Otherwise, you highlight that much activity occurs over the protocol. But that's between similar platforms. Lemmy<->Masto?
3/3
@maegul@hachyderm.io @fediversenews@venera.social
you highlight that much activity occurs over the protocol. But that's between similar platforms. Lemmy<->Masto?Just to clarify, because I think I am not understanding you correctly:
1. When you are using the trademarked name “Mastodon”, are you referring only to the Mastodon software?
2. Are you strictly speaking about the Lemmy software and the Mastodon software in your “Lemmy<->Masto” example? You are not talking about in general, say, “BookWyrm<->Calckey” or “Pixelfed<->Akkoma”? Just strictly “Lemmy<->Masto” software, correct?
I'm happy to approximate most of the fediverse as "mastodon", and there are numbers to back that up. So any "masto" reference is both "mastodon" and loosely the microblogging fediverse at large.
As far as my issue of whether the fediverse's large membership is seeding new platforms and spaces, it's sufficient IMO to just talk about mastodon.
In the case of mastodon<->Akkoma/Calckey etc, they're similar platforms and don't count, though there are also issues there.
Yuki (스노 雪亮) 
Again, that's because we have 10 million #Mastodon users who haven't even heard of #Lemmy, much less #kbin. They can't use what they don't even know exists.On top of these, we have at least 1.9 million Mastodon users who have at least heard of Lemmy, but who don't know that they can use their already existing Mastodon accounts to join Lemmy communities and /kbin magazines.
If you want more interaction between Mastodon and Lemmy, then people on Mastodon with gajillions of followers like Eugen Rochko, Greta Thunberg or George Takei would have to advertise Lemmy and its Mastodon compatibility and link to the Lemmy community browser once a week for at least half a year until everyone and their dog knows.
@jupiter_rowland oh or you can search for things like
!newcommunities@lemmy.world
@youronlyone @fediversenews @maegul
Thank you. This was helpful. The part about #ActivityPub being a protocol was a key piece I was missing.
Your bulleted points examples (1. 2. and a. b.) were very helpful in describing the misunderstanding.
Now I'm starting at https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ to learn more.
Thank you for taking the time to explain.