We worry about providing Universal Basic Income because people might stop working, but here's a thought: maybe, just maybe, with a little financial security, people might actually pursue work they truly choose rather than work to just not die. Imagine that world for a moment.
@scottsantens Plus, a society which depends on people working only to avoid starvation seems like one with room for improvement.
Universal Basic Income (UBI) would be especially liberating for people unable to work 'normally' because of disability, health issues, caring responsibilities, etc. At present, they might risk current welfare benefits if they work at all - but UBI would give them the flexibility to work when they can, perhaps through their own self-employment.
(There is hard evidence, incidentally, that disabled people tend to be more entrepreneurial than the population at large - see Persons With Disabilities & Entrepreneurship - www.disabled-world.com.)
@scottsantens For about 2 million years, humans have been using ingenuity to engineer ways to reduce the amount of work we have to do. Indeed, the extent to which we do so is what distinguishes us from other apes. We praise engineers who invent machines to save labour, yet the logical end point, a society where nobody has to work, is apparently a bad thing because the labour itself, and not the end result, is what is good?
@scottsantens [Sarcasm] Yeah, but then no-one would ever work in cleaning or sanitation work, just like how my family lets filth and trash pile up in our house because no-one at home is being paid to clean. Humans, known for social collaboration, are incapable of coming up with any kind of system for this issue.
@scottsantens
What we currently call Retirement could be seen as an experiment to test this - and I think your position is vindicated. At least a significant proportion of people with sufficient in the way of pension effectively work in support of values they hold dear: Schools, refugee support, conservation, local libraries... The list goes on.
#UBI
@scottsantens Can I just say that even when people do ‘stop working’ they also will be wasting other’s time less?
UBI would release the potential of literally millions of people who are currently yoked to slave wages and scarcity programming cultivated by billionaires who are encumbered by their own scarcity beliefs. It’s infuriating and doesn’t have to be this way.
Related: as a self-employed person, I’m making the statement that if you support my opinions, you can also hire me to be a coach, speaker or consultant.
@scottsantens I’m a programmer, and I ‘retired’ at 58yo (burnout). For 18mo did nothing, then afterwards started a coding project that I’ve spent the last 18mo on, weekends, holidays, 10+ hr/day, no breaks (except a couple of days every couple of months). No burnout in sight. I could do this because I saved money before which will be supplemented by soc sec. People _will_ work even with a UBI. There _might_ be fewer people feeling compelled to slave in an Amazon fulfillment center.
@scottsantens I'm in favor of UBI and living wages for all work. But we do have to acknowledge the reality that some jobs are hard, boring, or unpleasant, yet they still have to be done anyway. We have to have incentives to take those jobs. Obviously, the threat of not surviving isn't acceptable, so what would you suggest?
Also, what's your plan for managing the subsequent inflation?
@textualdeviance @scottsantens
Paying people what the job is worth.
The threat of not surviving is only required because people aren't paid enough. Demand and supply.
@leeloo @scottsantens Of course! There's no such thing as unskilled labor.
But I've also unfortunately seen a lot of folks speak of UBI as if it's the first step toward dismantling a financial economy entirely, and that way lies having to come up with other incentives to get people to do the dirty work necessary for basic civilization.
@textualdeviance @scottsantens Taxing corporate greed and billionaire CEOs is a good first move there.
Inflation is not driven by increased minimum wage - or at least it's doing just fine without that moving an inch for 40 years in a certain country that insists on being scared of inflation whenever any worker right is being mentioned.
@ralesk @scottsantens I'm aware of the Card and Krueger research on that. But things have changed politically since then. We've already seen that companies just randomly increase prices when they feel like it, not as a response to demand increases or to maintain a falling profit margin.
My point isn't against pay increases. I'm absolutely in favor. But without regulations on industry to stop them from price gouging, all that extra pay just evaporates.
@textualdeviance @scottsantens
without regulations on industry to stop them from price gouging
Oh absolutely.
@scottsantens Yes, think of the potential creativity that could be unleashed. All those dreamers who are to poor or exhausted at the end of the day to explore their ideas and dreams.
@scottsantens I don't get the idea that people will stop working - people love to buy stuff and do things that cost money that will certainly be beyond what a UBI will provide.
@scottsantens
Whenever I discussed this in class, some said "But then nobody wants to work."
I replied with "Would you stop working?" after which some would say "No..."
Others said they didn't like their job > basic income would help find something they liked.
Others said some don't WANT to work. True. Already the case now. So? Let people who WANT to work do that work > it will be done better.
So... I've been for it for a long time, although I would prefer a world without money or bartering.
@pascaline @scottsantens
That's what I've been saying for years. People who don't want to work are working, getting stressed and costing society a ton of money, while people who base their entire identity on their job are unemployed, getting stressed over that and costing society tons of money.
A lot of ressources are wasted on "job training" which mostly exist to keep people too busy to find a job, and to make sure that every job application looks the same.
@pascaline @scottsantens
Do you have any thoughts on the "landlords will just raise rent, negating it" argument? Other than laws to prevent it, I'm not sure how to avoid that.
Unless we start taxing the shit out of buildings with less than 4 units so it doesn't make sense to try and be a landlord.
@RedOct
Well, if there was no money but the society was based on merits, for instance, there would be no sense in asking, let alone raising, rents.
@pascaline @scottsantens
That may be, but that's not the situation we're working towards here. We're specifically creating a situation where people are getting a certain amount of money, but don't have the power themselves to control costs.
@scottsantens
I started collecting social security as soon as possible rather than wait for full retirement age.
Then I was able to work any hours I wanted at any job I wanted to try.
It has been life changing.
Apparently we must reach our 60s for opportunities to explore our potential, or be available for child care, etc.
Or, we could just give everyone a basic income. Because that is a proven measure.
@Edelruth @scottsantens But what if it only works in practice but not in theory? The Kochs paid a lot of money for that theory!
@scottsantens I first came across the idea of UBI (wasn’t presented as such but it was that) in an SF novel as a teenager in the early 80s (not knowing it had been broached by many before this) and it’s curious that it seems futuristic still (as it did to the central character who had experienced time dilation)… it wasn’t presented negatively, but was viewed through the lense of an individual who had only really experienced a full-employment culture and was a bit dismissive of the burgeoning artistic renaissance it had engendered.
Aside: I learnt recently that Nixon seriously considered UBI which really blew my mind https://thecorrespondent.com/4503/the-bizarre-tale-of-president-nixon-and-his-basic-income-bill/173117835-c34d6145
@wlukewindsor @scottsantens UBI works great. We need to push this. Imagine how many would be saved from the ravages of poverty.
UBI is not a fully defined term, yet. There are two different levels to be had. Level one is basic subsistence income. Level two is a basic income that allows a significant level of discretionary purchase. The justifications are different between the two.
I'm looking at level 1, and in my view, it becomes necessary and preferable to welfare when we become automated enough that the total number of jobs falls below the number of people who need jobs to survive. Welfare serves as a stopgap until we get there.
I'm surprised, too, that the number of service jobs seems to increase as the jobs that are automated remove workers from manufacturing and some service jobs. This goes all the way from an auto line robot, to grocery self-checkout.
Some might argue that good basic jobs are disappearing, as crappy gig jobs that don't pay living wages inflate the service sector, as people scrap for work. So wages are being driven down now by 2 mechanisms.
I think it's time to do it.
@scottsantens I'm imagining all the thankless, crap jobs that no one wants to do, which would have to pay well enough to be worth it. But then, those jobs wouldn't even have to pay that much if necessities are already covered. Works for me!
@scottsantens That argument will prevent UBI entirely. American capitalism runs on slave labor & we have installed a political & Justice system bought & paid for by the corporate overlords.
@scottsantens I think people over estimate the attraction of not working ,even with enough to live on,most people would prefer to do some work ,they might have a lull when doing nothing seems brilliant ,but eventually it gets very boring ,;most people would work given the choice,they just wont be forced to work longer hours than their health can cope with or do work thats dangerous or unrewardings
But, Scott! Who will do all the miserable work that needs to be done but no one wants to do? Society will collapse!
/sarcasm
@scottsantens I really want to believe in a world like that but then I look at my neighbours and their three kids, living of social support, in their own house paid by social support, who spend all day in front of the TV or busy shouting at each other or random passers by on the street and my faith in that world somewhat crumbles
UBI is a good step but society also needs to transform to make more out of their life than just consuming all day; especially if they have no reason to worry about financial stability.
@heals @scottsantens Have you ever asked them why they do that? The answer might surprise you.
@scottsantens The right supports UBI because: (a) it will enable them to remove welfare provisions; and (b) they will demand that people stand on their feet as libertarians do. Much better to improve wages and retain welfare provision.
@scottsantens
the wealthy amongst us already have *basic* guaranteed income. It's called; spending a portion of excess $$ that they've stolen/hoarded their entire lives to support their offspring until they can either join the established family business or create their own grift.
It's how and why Texas has become what it always will be.
@scottsantens the research so far on UBI I believe has only proven that it gets people working more. It helps them get better jobs, start their own business, or even get off the street.
@scottsantens I believe one of the greatest benefits would be in giving employees the ability to walk away from abusive jobs. If employers want to stay in business they would need to curtail abusive managers and address toxic work environments rather than shackle people in their reasonable fear of poverty.
@scottsantens
Who would do the unpleasant jobs?
@CassandraVert @scottsantens The people you pay enough to do them.
@BernieDoesIt @scottsantens
As it should be. It would be nice if all jobs were fulfilling, but some just aren't. Maybe the people in those jobs can have a shorter week so they can do more fulfilling things in their free time.
@CassandraVert @scottsantens Things that need doing have a habit of getting done as long as there aren't any obstacles to them.
@scottsantens@hachyderm.io
yeh but you forget if the alternative is no longer death ppl might be able to bargain for better pay and working conditions which could hurt profits dividens and executive pay.
@scottsantens@hachyderm.io won't somebody please think of the poor shareholders.
@scottsantens also think about how much better jobs like retail, historically just super duper at worker treatment (/sarcasm) will have to be to compete against just chilling. The incentives would be tremendous.
@Mareepy @scottsantens what if, maybe, work wasn't a miserable gruelling slog? like maybe people get to sit down sometimes? have reasonable work hours, time off, allowed to be actively involved in the management of their job? maybe people would become invested in building their job into being better if they knew it was for them and their ccommunity, instead of just lining an exec's pockets and getting thanked by laying off your co-worker, since you clearly are doing more than enough yourself
@scottsantens Independence from billionaires? Get outa here.
@scottsantens @DataDrivenMD
A lot of my thinking can be distilled down to these three points.
1) We have an energy burden that comes with being alive. We need heat and to eat.
2) We will do what we need to to survive. Lowering the cost of living effectively sets us free.
3) When we are free we make our own happiness.
UBI lowers the cost of living and frees many from poverty. We will all be happier.
@scottsantens No need to imagine - there’s plenty of research that shows it.
@cassiozen @scottsantens Sure, it works in practice. But what about in theory?
@BernieDoesIt @scottsantens In theory AI is gonna come for all of our jobs, so we might as well establish UBI…
@scottsantens That's what all studies on UBI (even ones unceremoniously cancelled part way through) have shown. 80+ % of participants did something of value to society - caring for family (young & old), went to school, volunteered, worked part time, started a business, etc.
It's absurd that we're not doing this because a noisy minority of people are worried about some small percentage of people will take some time off.
@JustinDerrick @scottsantens
I know several people on assistance because they can't work a normal job. They all do something to earn extra money if they can, none are lazy. I know one person who has never worked and doesn't want to. Forcing that person into employment would harm employers. Cutting off supports would force them into crime. So it's cheaper for society to simply support that one person than not. UBI would end homelessness and provide for everyone no matter their misfortune.
@scottsantens It will also make sure that toilsome jobs are compensated fairly.
@scottsantens@hachyderm.io
Pretty sure part of why the US is hesitant to change from job-provided health insurance to universal healthcare coverage is the current system forces many people to choose between having adequate healthcare coverage or pursuing jobs they actually like.
@scottsantens That is, of course, exactly what the ruling class doesn't want.
And that world — where you don't have the constant threat of being thrown out into the street to starve forcing you to 'consent' to relentless exploitation of your time and effort to further enrich absentee 'shareholders' — is exactly the world that our billionaire owners are so terrified of that they're pushing hard for literal human extinction via climate catastrophe, enforced by global fascist takeover, instead.
What a time to be alive.