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Holy shit. I just talked a cis guy on the internet down from "Let kids be kids" and got him to see why gender-affirming care for teens absolutely cannot wait.
This is one of my greatest achievements. I have a legitimate urge to take a victory lap.
@Impossible_PhD so well stated. Ty.
@aizuchi I mean, thank you. I'm just stunned I did it, and kinda wanted to prove it, because it was so unlikely. XD
@Impossible_PhD Any chance you have a link? I think you did a great job with that and would like to drop it into a few inboxes.
@Willow I don't want to call out the guy in question. He didn't sign up to be put on a bullhorn.
Would the screenshot do for you?
@Impossible_PhD Sure! I’ll use that. 
@Impossible_PhD Damn. That was frikkin' *perfect*. And I feel that description so much, *especially* about shoe sizes. I'm a 14 in women's sizing. I have *three* pairs of Pleasers, only one of which really fit me properly. Sigh. 
@shaggyzed SERIOUSLY I like pleasers for, erm, certain things, but they feel weird to wear going into work or whatever.
@Impossible_PhD Oh, I get it. 
But they do have some more, ah... reasonable offerings in their catalog. And some are cute too!
@Impossible_PhD @shaggyzed I don't think I've ever seen Pleasers shoes, but the way you've described them in that post, I'm guessing they turn the "annoying repetitive jokes" from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum.
Which is hard to resolve because there's just the one brand trying to be the Spinal Tap of shoe making.
@AT1ST @shaggyzed ohhh, I promise you have. Everyone who's an adult has seen something of theirs somewhere.
@Impossible_PhD @shaggyzed Ah - wait, are they the only brand that makes stilletos or high heels then? Or are they the ones that basically exclusively make them?
@AT1ST @Impossible_PhD Lots of shoe companies make high/stiletto/platform heels. LOTS. 
@AT1ST @Impossible_PhD Pleaser's been around for a long time now. They're probably most known for "stripper shoes", but they've got styles that run the gamut from fetish to cosplay to vintage to completely mundane everyday stuff.
ETA: I own those ankle boots, they're the first pair I got. Very comfortable and I can wear them almost all day. (Not *all* day because my feet are weird, not because they're bad shoes.)
@Impossible_PhD@hachyderm.io Absolutely bravo! You deserve far more than a round of applause. It's really hard to have talks like that, especially when it feels like a never-ending discussion and can be so close to home. So I have mad respect that you not only succeeded, but made the attempt, and came up with such a well thought-out and in-depth response!
@Impossible_PhD damn, well done
@Impossible_PhD That is perfect. No notes.
@Impossible_PhD@hachyderm.io this stupid society kept me from tranitioning until my hair was a total disaster, I feel this in my bones
@rachel If you ever find a time machine, give finasteride a try. It's technically a androgen blocker, but because of the roundabout way it does its work, it's usually not gatekept for AMAB girls (at least the closeted ones), and a GP might be willing to prescribe it as a hair preservation medicine. But it has (mild) other benefits for people who are not particular fans of dihydrotestosterone on their brains, too.
Impossible_PhD@hachyderm.io
@rachel Sometimes, I really wish retroactive advice could be more helpful. 
@legumancer Makes sense.
Because of the way finasteride works, it might possibly lead to a more optimal hormone balance for some people's brains than binary HRT. I reckon most of these people would be enbies of some sort, but, hey, Biology Is Messy, And Sometimes There's Exceptions.
@legumancer@tech.lgbt @riley@toot.cat I'm currently taking dutastride+Minoxidil which is helping I think, but maybe not quite enough
@legumancer In a better world, transition trial kits would be a thing that curious people can get at a corner pharmacy and see if they like them. @rachel
@riley@toot.cat @legumancer@tech.lgbt Ok vaguely related....
I found a forum thread a while back about "guys"* who were desperate to "fix/save" their hair from hairloss that they were trying basically DIY-HRT.
Hundreds of forum pages latter.... some of the "guys" were happily identifying as non-binary. Others experienced so much dysphoria from the HRT that they dropped it, or scaled it back. Turns out cis guys don't like the feminizing effects very much at all, not to mention brain fog from wrong hormones.
@rachel Yep. Finasteride is mainly accepted as a cis medicine because it leaves plain testosterone untouched (well, directly, anyway) and enough DHT around that most cis men can tolerate it relatively well, unlike binary transfem estrogen HRT.
@legumancer But it's not a controlled substance, so you might get away with self-increasing your dosage and refilling it a bit more often than prescribed.
@legumancer The primary difference between finasteride and dutasteride, btw, is, finasteride only blocks two of the three main T->DHT conversion enzymatic pathways. The third one stays functiona with finasteridel, even if taking a high dosage. Dutasteride also blocks the third pathway.
@Impossible_PhD Hi ! I've seen that your instance does not allow such long image descriptions. Here is still the transcript, so everybody can access the image's content :
when say let kids be kids I mean in my opinion let them be as they is and they can change at the age limit.
The problem ss that this isn't a harmless option. There are real, immediate, permanent, and dire consequences for forcing a kid to live through a puberty that isn't right for them.
You seem like a dude. Imagine, for a moment, that you're twelve, and all of a sudden you start growing boobs. Like, at first, seems like a novelty, right? Hey, look at this! Your friends make some jokes about them. Everyone laughs.
Now you're thirteen. They're still making jokes, and you're getting tired of the jokes. You try to laugh, but it's the same joke they've been making for a year now, and it's tiring. And your tits are still growing. Now they're big enough that you have to wear a bra any time you're out of bed. You can't work out shirtless, like you like. The sweat trickles down underneath and makes your skin stick to itself. They jiggle when you run. It hurts.
Now you're fourteen. Your tits are still growing. Why won't they stop fucking growing? You had to throw your bras away last month and get a hunch of new ones, and your parents told you that they were so expensive that you're going to have to go without new clothes for school this year, or only get thrift ones. Your friends are still making those stupid fucking jokes. You're starting to distance yourself from them. It's lonely after school.
Now you're fifteen. The doctors say your tits are unusually large for your stage of puberty and they're still growing. They say you'll get used to them, and if you don't like them, you can have them removed when you're eighteen. In three years. But there's a six-to-eight-month wait for the surgery once you're on the onramp, so it's closer to four years anyway. You had to get new bras again, and your parents made you get a job if you want new clothes for school. The customers at Burger King laugh at your tits. It's the same joke your friends started making when you were twelve. Why does everyone think it's so fucking funny? You haven't talked to any of them in a couple of months anyway, especially after John asked if he could squeeze one. Fucking gross. You had to quit the track team because they bounce so much, and the only sports bras that'd keep them properly immobilized so you can still run cost $100 per bra. The girls at school won't be your friend either, because you're a man, and they think a man with tits is gross.
Now you're sixteen...
Are you starting to get the picture here? Every single trans man lives through this if he doesn't go on puberty blockers. Every single trans woman grows thicker brow and jaw hones, has a voice that breaks and drops forever, grows and broadens, in ways that can never be undone. A torture she has to live with for the rest of her life.
I am size 11 in Men's shoes (EU 45). On the larger size, but not too bad. But in women's sizind, I'm a 13--there are only 5 manufacturers in the entire United States who make women's shoes in my size, and one of them is Pleaser. Yes, the Pleaser who makes stripper shoes. There are entire types of women's shoe that I literally cannot get, and if I want a pair of sneaker —plain old fashioned sneakers— I have to order them online and hope they're comfortable, because no store in my entire city stocks Size 13's.
Puberty blockers would've kept me from having to live this for the rest of my life.
And that's why it's an out-and-out cruelty to force trans teens to live through the wrong puberty.
@orange_lux Thank you. There was no practical way to do it without a massive reply chain, and those always turn into disasters.
I love this. Everyone can understand the idea of being forced through the wrong puberty against your will. And transphobes often talk about permanent effects of gender affirming care, but never talk about the permanent effects of not getting the care you need.
But I agree with him: Let kids be kids!
Trans kids should be the kids they are, not the kids other people think they should be until they hit 18.
@Impossible_PhD this helped me understand the problem more. Thanks for putting it out there. Now I can explain it to others better.
@Impossible_PhD i wish i could have transitioned at 16
@Impossible_PhD this is incredibly well written. Thank you so much for all the spoons you had to spend in order to crank this out.
@Impossible_PhD I think one of the struggles is the weird propaganda I hear and see from the US like, and I quote "the left wants to put kids on HRT to make them trans" (yes, I really heard that one) and I had to dismantle it bit by bits with relatively little success (Who is "the left"? HRT or puberty blockers? Who said that?...) because the person in question was not equipped with any answers to challenge the claim themselves
@Impossible_PhD So, your words painted a sufficiently vivid picture to cause, for a moment, just long enough, a whiff of gender dysphoria in a cis dude.
| when I say let kids be kids I mean in my opinion let them be as they is and they can change at the age limit.
The problem is that this isn't a harmless option. There are real, immediate, permanent, and dire consequences for for forcing a kid to live through a puberty that isn't right for them.
You seem like a dude. Imagine, for a moment, that you're twelve, and all of a sudden you start growing boobs. Like, at first, seems like a novelty, nght? Hey, look at this! Your friends make some jokes about them. Everyone laughs.
Now you're thirteen. They're still making jokes, and you're getting tired of the jokes. You try to laugh, but it's the same joke they've been making for a year now, and it's tinng. And your tits are still growing. Now they're big enough that you have to wear a bra any time you're out of bed. You can't work out shirtless, like you like. The sweat tnckles down underneath and makes your skin stick to itself. They jiggle when you run. It hurts.
Now you're fourteen. Your tits are still growing. Why won't they stop fucking growing? You had to throw your bras away last month and get a bunch of new ones, and your parents told you that they were so expensive that you're going to have to go without new clothes for school this year, or only get thnft ones. Your friends are still making those stupid fucking jokes. You're starting to distance yourself from them. It's lonely after school.
Now you're fifteen. The doctors say your tits are unusually large for your stage of puberty and they’re still growing. They say you'll get used to them, and if you don't like them, you can have them removed when you're eighteen. In three years. But there's a six to eight-month wait for the surgery once you're on the onramp, so it's closer to four years anyway. You had to get new bras again, and your parents made you get a job if you want new clothes for school. The customers at Burger King laugh at your tits. It's the same joke your fnends started making when you were twelve. Why does everyone think it's so fucking funny? You haven’t talked to any of them in a couple of months anyway, especially after John asked if he could squeeze one. Fucking gross. You had to quit the track team because they bounce so much, and the only sports bras that'd keep them properly immobilized so you can still run cost $100 per bra. The giris at school won't be your frend either, because you're a man, and they think a man wth tits is gross.
1/2
Now you're sixteen...
Are you starting to get the picture here? Every single trans man lives through this if he doesn't go on puberty blockers. Every single trans woman grows thicker brow and Jaw bones, has a voice that breaks and drops forever, grows and broadens, in ways that can never be undone. A torture she has to live with for the rest of her life.
I am Size 11 in Men's shoes (EU 45). On the larger size, but not too bad. But in women's sizing, I'm a 13--there are only 5 manufacturers in the entire United States who make women's shoes in my size, and one of them is Pleaser. Yes, the Pleaser who makes stripper shoes. There are entire types of women’s shoe that I literally cannot get, and if I want a pair of sneaker--plain old fashioned sneakers--I have to order them online and hope they're comfortable, because no store in my entire city stocks Size 13's.
Puberty blockers would've kept me from having to live this for the rest of my life. And that's why it's an out-and-out cruelty to force trans teens to live through the wrong puberty.
2/2
@pewnack thank you, but someone else beat you to the punch.
@Impossible_PhD I'm a cis man so feel free to ignore this question. OTOH, I'm asking this question from the point of view of a parent that might need to face this in the future if their kids start feeling that way.
Would be an endgoal a society were we're not longer man and woman, but just people? Would also help if people would not care how other people dress?
Context: I'm trying to raise my kids so they don't think in terms of 'this is an activity for men, this other one for women'.
@Impossible_PhD Damn character limit.
I have a girl and a boy, and the boy sometimes uses 'girly' clothes handed down from her sister. He uses and likes pink, and luckily my daughter has gone through the pink phase. Yes, not that it would be bad if she just kept on it, I hope you understand what I mean. The only thing we're not so sure about is to allow the boy to use dresses outside the house, mostly because we haven't seen others, and we're immigrants in a country we don't know that well.
@mdione That last part is a social and national question I can't answer for you. It has little to do with gender and much more to do with social safety, which is a problem of patriarchy, not gender.
@mdione @Impossible_PhD it's complicated, because some people find a lot of joy in their gender. But I think a society where the in-between ways of being that don't fit man and woman are also accepted, would be wonderful.
I think that even if I lived in a society without gender, not having breasts would still be a need for me. The feeling of them was horrible and drove me nuts. And the size of mine was average. It wasn't about how I looked, it was about the physical sensation.
I also know trans people who's mental health improves substantially on HRT, even when it's the first day they took it and zero physical changes have happened, and even in one case an AMAB person who didn't yet identity as trans, who was taking a partial anti-androgen for medical reasons and had a sudden, very significant mental health improvement.
So I think even a genderless society would have a place for the things we think of as gender affirming care.
@mdione @Impossible_PhD raising your kids to feel comfortable doing/wearing/having whatever appeals to them regardless of gender norms seems very healthy to me.
A long coat can be good for going out in a dress without anyone seeing and giving you a hard time. Your son shouldn't have to hide, but I don't know how to stop people from being shitheads.
@mdione @Impossible_PhD I'd hesitate to say there's an 'endgoal', here, and having spent some time in the trans community and can say there's a lot of differing opinions on this topic. But I'd say that, in general, we want gender to be considered a more fluid concept, with associations much looser than they are today. Things might be 'masc' or 'femme', but people would be able to take things from the other gender without anyone raising eyebrows.
@mdione @Impossible_PhD For some people, yes. But at the same time the society we grow up in treats people differently based on what they look and sound like, so some people just want to be treated as having a specific gender.
The example above shows it's also just about feeling at home in your own body. Which strangers (politicians) often don't allow.
It's probably most practical to remember that the categories we use are just convenient shorthand, and reality resists simple categories.
@mdione gender abolition, which is what you're describing, is not a real goal. It's what feminists fought for in the 90s and early 00s, but has been largely abandoned for a simple reason:
Gender abolition *in practice* becomes the abolition of womanhood in less time than it takes to cook an egg. As such, attempts to do so end up reinforcing patriarchal systems of oppression, not tearing them down.
There's a lot of reasons for this, but one of the big ones is the deep-rooted treatment of the--
@mdione
--feminine as the marked or aberrant gender, while masculinity is natural. This comes from patriarchy itself, which treats being a man as a default state of humanity, when it isn't.
And all that ignores the fact that a lot of us--myself included--love our genders, and would never willingly give them up (th other main reason degendering immediately becomes the extermination of the feminine--men like being men).
What trans folks want is a de-charging of the power dynamics attached to--
@mdione
--genders, to stand down the policing of gender boundaries, and to throw the doors wide to *more* gendered categories, not fewer.
To draw an analogy, we want gender to have the same level of stigma and import as choosing what kind of cuisine to have when you go out for dinner. Right now, we're in 1950s America. You can have steak, or you can have seafood. We want 2020s America, with not just Mexican and Italian too, but Etheopian and someone's weird fusion ideas and so much more.
@mdione @Impossible_PhD „No men and women“ no. „Less pressure from others“ yes. More self-determination. More options. Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“. It’s okay to stick to „traditional“ roles if that makes them happy - unless they press other to comply.
My main problem as a nonbinary person is, that others categorize me by sight and insist on their (binary) judgement, which is especially bad in german because of our totally binary gendered language.
Second problem, somewhat related: Too many places have two and only doors - real and metaphorical -, where a broader entrance made for all would be better for everyone.
So, let people find their gender (style). Find your own and enjoy the diversity. Don’t assume their gender (be neutral until they tell you) and don’t let them press you into their roles. Don’t build unnecessary categories and make rooms open, safe and suitable for all.
That would be my perfect (gender) world.
> "No men and women" no.
> Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“.
I would just leave it as "styles". I think that all the current clasifications (LGBTQ+ and, yes, C[is]) are still clasifications that not necesarily reflect every body.
I have a she friend. She had a boy friend. Then she dated some women and men, so she was bi. Then two guys, so bigamous. Now back to one guy, and now a kid. What is she? What was she?
@jaddy @Impossible_PhD Damn character limit.
To me, just a person, my friend.
I understand that this sounds like "all lives matter", but again, I'm talking about the utopia I want.
@mdione @jaddy no, it doesn't.
It sounds like a white person saying "I don't see color."
These facets of ourselves are central to who we are and our experience in the world. Many, probably the significant majority of us, find a LOT of joy and vibrancy in our identities. I *like* being a lesbian, beyond just liking women, and neither you nor anyone else gets to take that away from me.
Especially as a member of the dominant group, it's not okay for someone--you--to try to collapse those things.