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@warthog9 I'm curious to find out what's behind this, as someone who sends non-gmail mail to gmail and so far has not had problems, even without adopting the draconian dkim/dmarc stuff (and having very liberal spf).

@dalias

I'm under the impression that gmail's Bayesian spam filter is what I'll term a Demented Ouroborus Algorithm:

• emails are marked as spam and put in the junk folder where the user never sees them

• because the email is in the junk folder, the algorithm takes that as confirmation that it is spam

• The algorithm then increases the spam likelihood score from that sender on that basis, sending more of their emails into their Gmail recipients' junk folders

• lather, rinse, repeat

@warthog9

@dalias

So if you don't have a problem, you don't have a problem, but if you have even so much as one person sending your email into their junk folder, or if one happens to wind up there due to the phase of the moon and the crankiness of the algorithm, it rapidly spirals completely out of control, and you have a very big problem.

@warthog9

@c0dec0dec0de @siderea @dalias @warthog9 everything about how spam filters work is bad for users. Mail should either be delivered or not, senders should know which happened and why, and recipients should be in control of what is and isn’t delivered to them. None of it should be subject to the whims of a chaotic score based on a secret formula.

@ShadSterling @c0dec0dec0de @siderea @warthog9 Absolutely and that's how my mail system works. It live pipes to a process owned by the recipient during SMTP delivery and that process can accept or reject with exit codes that give the sender a temporary or permanent error, leaving it their mail system's responsibility to retry or report error. No legacy intermediary relaying nonsense.

@dalias @ShadSterling @c0dec0dec0de @siderea @warthog9 Your system runs random binaries shared by users?

@lispi314 @ShadSterling @c0dec0dec0de @siderea @warthog9 Well I'm the only user. But no, they run as the receiving user in a properly privilege isolated environment.

@dalias @ShadSterling @c0dec0dec0de @siderea @warthog9 I see. Does that environment allow for persistence?

I'm wondering as I've found that bogofilter generally does a decent job when one bothers to actually use it for a little while.

Then again perhaps it's preferable to use that only on the user's end.

@lispi314 @ShadSterling @c0dec0dec0de @siderea @warthog9 Well it's up to the user how they want to sandbox it.