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@patterfloof I would love to have more trains in the US. They face a lot of practical headwinds though, if only because we have a ton of good car infrastructure.
At the regional level, Interstate highways + big, comfortable cars + lots of parking mean driving is usually the fastest, cheapest and most convenient way to get somewhere. By the time driving is annoying, you might as well fly… and rent a car once you get there.
At the local level, trains are slow. I live in a major city with one of the best subway systems in the USA. I have very rarely used it to commute because it’s half the speed of driving. Yes traffic sucks, but a terrible traffic day slows the drive down to a normal metro day.
My community considered building a street car as part of a corridor redevelopment. After extensive debate, we cancelled the project in favor of a new bus line.
@patterfloof All that to say, trains are awesome and I would like them to be a good option more often, but the layout we have is not optimal for trains.
A great next step for rail in the US would be genuinely high speed rail between DC and Boston. There’s a ton of trips between major hubs, it’s annoying to drive/park, and air travel is dominated by traversing the airports.
@patterfloof If I departed for Boston right now, google maps says it’s:
8 hour drive
10 hour train
1.5 hr flight … maybe 5 hours with airports.
Lets validate with real prices for a one night trip:
- Amtrak offers a 6h 40min trip on Acela for $530 round trip.
- Delta airlines offers a 1hr 45min trip for $400.
That’s what we’re up against for US rail. The best case scenario: 5 hours and $130 more. Rail has to flip those economics to grow here.
@PeterBronez @patterfloof My experience in Germany is the opposite - if people have a train connection close by, even when they have a car they will often take the train. In Berlin only about 30% of households even have a car, and the majority of that is on the outskirts. Our high-speed trains are a way more comfortable and by now mostly faster way to hop between cities. But even so we could still move a lot more traffic to public transport.
Trains are the most energy efficient transportation mode over land. (Boats can be more efficient where there's water.)
But the US subsides its auto and airline industries.
If we made them pay their own way, the economy of rail travel would make it attractive again.
So we're stuck with sharing rail with freight, and Just In Time freight tactics are abusing rail access by ensuring the trains are too long to take the passing sidings, so the passenger trains will *always* have to pull off and wait for the freight to pass.
@feld @PeterBronez @patterfloof
The US already has the rail rights-of-way it needs. It also has "eminent domain" laws that allow the government to buy for "fair market value" any land it wants for any purpose that would benefit many, such as shopping malls and sports arenas.
Since the introduction of the automobile and airlines, the US has lacked the will to keep effective passenger rail services, from the Los Angeles streetcars to the transcontinental lines.
> The US already has the rail rights-of-way it needs.
What does this mean? That we don't need any additional land? How is that possible when in some places the law requires 400ft (200ft ft around the rail)?
> It also has "eminent domain" laws
Don't even. This will get wrapped up in courts for decades. We all know it, that's why it's not being used. And how is this gonna work when some of the corridors we need have already been given back to the land owners? Gonna just take it back without decades long legal fights? Strong doubt.
https://www.calt.iastate.edu/article/us-supreme-court-says-ownership-abandoned-railroad-right-way-reverts-landowner
You also have to contend with this mess: https://lawreview.colorado.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/9.-Roberts_s.pdf
@feld @PeterBronez @patterfloof
The case about reversion is interesting and certainly reasonable; I see it as balancing the power of eminent domain and squatters' rights, albeit in favor of the previous owner.
The 2011 Colorado Law Review article looks interesting and will take me some time to read. Thank you for sharing it.
However, eminent domain laws work, are regularly upheld, and are being used right now to build California's high-speed railway system.
This could repeat in every state.
Why would anyone want to invest in a project that is going to take that much time and legal struggles? Most would balk at the idea.