So people often wonder why there isn't an explicitly Anti-Zionist Jewish instance. This is often said by people who hate Babka but wish there was an alternative. Let's explore the challenges of such an instance.
Firstly, there have been Anti-Zionist Jewish instances. There was masto.jews.international, kibitz.cloud, and even simcha.lgbt originally were all explicitly Anti-Zionist instances. So you can make one but what problems happen?
Well, it turns out people who hate Jews don't care if you are Anti-Zionist. They will accuse you of being one despite all evidence to the contrary. Not everyone will believe the bigots, but enough will that you will deal with regular harassment if you have any visibility.
Any visibility here meaning gentiles are broadly aware of your instance's existence, and you push back in any way on antisemitism from gentiles on the network.
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@raf Is there really a point of anti-zionist jew instance ? That seems very restrictive and I don't think it's good to be defined negatively (except for antifascism of course). As far as I understood jews.international was more for internationalist than explicitly anti-zionist.
My recollection is they were explicitly Anti-Zionist as well. But I welcome corrections from those with a better memory
@raf That would not be from me. I don't think I have ever looked at the about page, I just followed kittybecka and witnessed the endless antisemitic campaign against her
@alter_kaker It depends of the mean and intends I guess. Is the internationalism only for the Jews ? Is it for everyone but a long therm goal and Zionist is a step towards the abolition on nation state for oriental Jews not to be wiped out before it happens ?
Pure internationalism would be antithetical with zionist but then, people don't live in a world of theory and are not (and it's ok for me) fully coherent with every theory in which they believe for some degree
@raf
@alter_kaker I'm a bit frustrated with my English in this one, I'm not sure if what I'm writing is what I mean @raf
@derle look, I don't usually use the expression "anti-Zionist" except to mean something very specific, along the lines of anti fascist. Meaning actively engaged in research and action countering Zionist organizing and so on. I haven't been anti-Zionist in this sense for a long time. But most people say this they mean generally opposed to Zionism. And I don't see how one can be an internationalist without being generally opposed to a violent territorial-nationalist program
@raf
@derle I'm talking specifically about Jews. I think that it would be absurd to expect anyone to be specifically opposed to every nationalism, but surely it can be expected for an internationalist to be aware of and at least by default opposed to the exclusive territorial nationalist program of their own nation. Anyway, this is why Jews.international didn't (as far as I recall) have specific references to anti-Zionism, but rather a "no nationalism" clause.
@alter_kaker Sadly we live in a world were the end of zionism is more likely to be the complete annihilation of Asia and Africa Jews than an anarchist federation in the near east (Maybe not near for you). So it would be easier to promote what they stand for than what would disappear, but in a satisfying fashion, if what they stand for come to existence @raf
@derle I think that this is total nonsense@raf@babka.social
@derle the most likely end of Zionism is a civic democratic state, and this is what most people are working towards
@derle at least most people in the region
@alter_kaker That would be one of the best outcome, but I am way more pessimistic and as things stand, the most likely for me outcome is Israel becoming a fascist state which would be a disaster
@derle well I would say that this is the only other likely outcome, yes. Which is why I don't think that giving up on a democratic state is a realistic option.
@alter_kaker But I would not have called that anti-zionism thought but I think I see what you mean
@alter_kaker Because that was the main goal of some major movement inside zionism
@derle not a major movement within Zionism, that's a myth. Cultural Zionism was always very minor and never had any real accomplishments. It has also been extinct for something like seventy years. I'm talking about actually existing Zionism.