As your friendly neighbourhood jock-nerd, I'm here to remind you once again that nerds have always been more misogynistic than jocks, and it's not particularly close.
I said what I said.
Y'all act surprised every time this gets revealed to be true.
Evidence: Jocks pull
@celesteh @mekkaokereke I’m confused. The jocks were throwing homosexual and feminine insults at the nerds, with none in return. Later in life it was always the jocks who revealed to be homosexual themselves, and now are fighting the move from single-sex to co-educational schooling.
1. I think you might be talking about homophobia instead of misogyny? Related and in many ways overlapping, but not identical.
2. But even still, the gaming industry exists. IRC exists. I've been called the homophobic F word way more times by nerds than by jocks, and it's not remotely close. Let's not pretend that the f-word is not commonly used by nerds and other poasters that think themselves edgy. That same homophobia just transitioned to 4chan / Twitch / YT.
That said, I spent a lot of my time playing college football arguing with my teammates that football is without a doubt the most homoerotic sport invented by man, and so their homophobia made zero sense. That's like going to a rock concert and complaining that the music is too loud. And I pointed out that the percent of gay people that play football, is almost certainly *higher* than the percent of gay people in the population of men in general. Because football teams are a great place for gay men that don't want to be found out to hide.
@mekkaokereke @ckent @celesteh
That's a very generous and American perspective.
In German professional soccer, you can count the players who dare to be openly gay on one hand.
(And there have been so many mysogynistic incidents I'm not buying into the "jock paradise" narrative.)
But then again, I'm very much a total nerd, and don't move much in "jock" bubbles. So I don't have a final say on who is worse. (Actually, I'm having a hard time applying the "jock"/"nerd" dualism to local culture)
@billiglarper @ckent @celesteh
Very fair, for a number of reasons.
For one, the jock/nerd distinction I'm making only applies to the US, where everything is weird. Because we are weird. I should have clarified that.
@mekkaokereke @ckent @celesteh
I didn't want to diss the US at this point.
I'm fully aware of mysogy in STEM and various gaming communities.
But the I look at stories from women who tried getting into typical "jock" jobs like firefighter, military or police, and it's there, too.
In my experience, all men dominated groups are at risk to develop a climate that's adverse to women if not careful. It's one reason why tabletop boardgaming tends to be less problematic than tabletop wargaming
@billiglarper @ckent @celesteh
OK, were stretching super far if we're calling police officer a "jock job."
Police officers are often the opposite of jock culture. Many of them hate athletes. Young Black, successful, pro athletes, that women adore? Often make cops very mad in the US. If the definition of jock extends to police officers? Then I'm not sure we're having the same conversation.
Thabo Sefaloja on police brutality:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6dP-EYRCm0Q
LeBron on police brutality:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-QgIQGfO9p8
Bunch of athletes on police brutality:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUAaOkjVXO0
I'm not disagreeing with your point about there being misogyny in law enforcement etc. I'm just saying that for the point that I'm making, I don't consider police officers to be jocks. In fact, some extra violent cops are failed jocks, and they're still mad about it.
@billiglarper @ckent @celesteh
And no, I'm specifically rejecting the claim that jocks are a "men dominated group." In fact I'm making the exact opposite point.
Women are jocks too. Men athletes and women athletes have shared experiences. And when the men's football team is in the weight room, and women from the women's soccer team come in, the atmosphere is high fives and spotting each other. It's much more collegial and welcoming than when women try to enter men's intellectual spaces like chess clubs, or rocket clubs, or the Computer Science department, or contribute to Open Source Software.
@mekkaokereke @ckent @celesteh
To be honest, I'm still struggling with the entire "nerd"/"jock" concept. We don't have this college athlet scene that seems so crucial for the term "jock".
Personally, I roughly substitute along the axis introvert/imaginative and extrovert/athletics. Which is flawed, as there is quite a bit of overlap, in both theory and praxis.
And no, I didn't want to dispute there being female jocks. But in sports clubs and fraternities, you also have the mens only problem
@mekkaokereke @ckent @celesteh
I think one of the symptoms is "some men having a problem with losing against women" (which is rooted a lot in male status thinking and perceptions of female inferiority, imho).
Imho, you see that as much in male athletes as on some IT mailing lists. Same for the "seeing girlfriends as possessions" or "bros before hos" attitude.
@mekkaokereke @ckent @celesteh
Computer science and it's misogyny might be a bit of a special case. For one, it started out as a women dominated field (when status and pay was low) that got quickly and unfairly turned into a male dominated field once it gained prestige. And has been gatekept ever since.
I think that demonstrates nicely that it's more of a patriarchy problem than a nerd one. CS might attract more introverts, but I don't think being an introvert is the problem here.
@mekkaokereke @ckent @celesteh
Speaking of gatekeeping, sports might be even worse.
It seems so much designed on men earning a lot more than women. And women not being allowed to compete with men.
https://24hoursworlds.com/sports/898229/?amp
Why are there no mixed team leagues in the sports where the money is (football, basketball, soccer)? One could do teams with fixed ratios like 50/50.
Not to mention the sports like shooting or racing, where the gender segregation seems obviously nonsensical.
@billiglarper @ckent @celesteh
Because the decisions are made by nerds, not athletes. The athletes tend to favour support for equal pay. The non-athletes are much more sexist about women coaching, playing with men than athletes. Eg, jocks don't have any problem with this:
https://bsky.app/profile/mekka.mekka-tech.com/post/3lewzlyyllc2u
Or this:
https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/112899499259467194
Full disclosure: I sit on a board with pro athletes and nerds
And pro powerlifters and jocks don't get mad at the below very obvious fact, but most nerds that don't powerlift get very upset by it:
https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/112390746687431565
But we're super far off topic at this point. I'm disengaging, because I think we agree on the big things, but it's OK if we don't agree on everything.
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ckent
Without wishing to dispute anyone's point, the men's (American) football team and the women's (soccer) football team are explicitly separated in their main activities. They share the weight room, but they're never required to collaborate with or compete with each other. Neither is taking space that seemed to more "naturally" belong to the other.
The atmosphere in the weight room was probably quite different before Title XI (the US law that forces parity in university sports programmes) became completely normalised.
@celesteh @billiglarper @ckent
Men athletes compete with women athletes. Especially in the weight room.
Elite powerlifting is one of the biggest examples of "Elite men athletes respect and compete with elite women athletes, and are in awe of their accomplishments, but lay men non-athletes disrespect elite women athletes."
Read the last example. I've literally had guys that don't even lift get really upset at me for weeks about this and camp out angrily in my mentions. The funny thing is, among elite powerlifters, none of this is even controversial.
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ckent neat! Thanks for sharing this.